Pioneering a New Sound: An Interview with Jonathan Ogden
How do Christians effectively pioneer in the creative arts? More importantly, how do we worship as we create, offering up our art to the throne room? In today’s blog, AG Songwriting Mentor Stacy Tan talks to a dear friend of the ministry, Jonathan Ogden - a brilliant songwriter, producer, and artiste - to talk about his journey and what an exciting time it is to be a creative in God’s kingdom.
Hey Jon! You've been in the music business for a while and are one of the pioneers of the 'Christian Indie' music scene. What is your background and how did it lead you to create that new, never before heard sound?
I think my songwriting journey came from a simple curiosity. I live in Manchester, UK, which is a city known for its music. It’s a regular stop for artists on tour in Europe and in my late teens I caught the bug for live music and would attend several concerts a month, sometimes to see artists I’ve never heard of, just for fun.
I discovered a lot of great music at that time but also was really drawn to the diversity of genres and instrumentation - there was so much variety! I couldn’t help but draw comparisons to my experience in church where we’d stick to one genre (the kind of anthemic soft-rock style we’ve become accustomed to) and be singing the same songs at every event and conference.
Yes, there’s a real difference between those kinds of ‘corporate worship’ songs and the type of songs you write! What do you think is the role of the former and how does your music perform a different function?
I think there is a good reason we have those songs, and it’s a real skill to be able to write songs that can be sung in a corporate service. As a worship leader myself, I love those songs! But all the same, I couldn’t shake this curiosity to see what it would look like to write worship songs in a different genre. I wasn’t necessarily looking to create a ‘new sound’ but to find something ‘authentic’. I just wanted to write the kind of songs that came to me naturally as a genuine expression of my personal devotion to God, all without the pressure to try and write the next Sunday morning anthem.
Exactly! We know you to be an advocate of using creative arts (not just music but other forms such as graphic design, mixed media, etc) to point to the beauty of God. Francis A. Schaeffer, who wrote 'Art and the Bible' once said this: “A Christian should use these arts to the glory of God, not just as tracts, mind you, but as things of beauty to the praise of God. An art work can be a doxology in itself.” Why do you think good art is important in the Church?
I’m actually reading that book right now, and highlighted the same quote! I believe that art is a powerful language. It’s a way of communicating that engages the mind and the emotions in a really unique way. I love the way a song can unite a whole room in singing about a profound truth, or the way a great movie or painting can transport us to another place and get us to think deeply about something.
I also believe that beauty is something that directs our hearts towards God, whether people know it or not! There is something so mysterious and wonderful that happens when we encounter beauty - whether in creation, in a melody, in colour or movement. I believe it connects to something deep in our soul that was made to gaze upon the beauty of God. It’s like a little glimpse into the character and nature of God - the Beautiful One.
Many preachers, authors, and artists - like John Mark Comer - have written extensively about how God as the ultimate creator made us creative to reflect His nature. What do you think about that?
I totally agree! Creativity is such a gift from God and I’m really thankful that He made us this way. I think the ability to create is part of being human, part of what it means to be made in His image. Take music for example. Music doesn’t make sense on paper - we’re listening to vibrations in the air that resonate in our ears and cause us to hear different frequencies. And from that simple idea, we get symphonies, dance music, R&B, and so on… sounds that deeply affect our emotions, that can make us smile, cry, dance. God didn’t need to make us that way, but He did. It’s such a beautiful gift that was given to us as His children to enjoy and to work with. I believe He smiles over us when we create. When we take the tools and the materials He’s given us and we reconstruct them into something beautiful, that directs hearts and minds back to the original Creator.
Yes, in that way, it’s almost like an economy is created where art is used to draw people back to God again and again. Now comes the controversial question - how should we draw the line between what is ‘Christian art’ and ‘secular art’?
I think the more I started to see creativity as a gift, the more the Christian and secular divide didn’t make sense.
I think it’s too hard to define what is ‘Christian’ when it comes to art. If I write an instrumental song, is it still a Christian song? What if a non-Christian artist writes a song about Jesus? Is that a Christian song? I think about Mary’s song of praise in Luke 1. She starts with “My soul magnifies the Lord”. That stopped me in my tracks the last time I read it. I talk a lot about how the things we create can magnify the Lord, but what about my soul? What if I lived in a way that my very being brings glory to God, and not just the songs that I write?
So good. Perhaps you could share some of your influences, Christian and secular alike?
I grew up singing a lot of Matt Redman and Delirious songs, as well as some of the music coming from the International House of Prayer, particularly around 2009 - 2011 with Matt Gilman, Laura Hackett, Jon Thurlow… so they’ve been a big influence on me as a songwriter.
In terms of mainstream music, I’m a big fan of artists like Toro Y Moi, who seems to reinvent himself with every album and try out new genres. I’ve also been enjoying some of the modern jazz artists coming out of London recently: Joe Armon-Jones, Alfa Mist, Nubya Garcia. I’ve been listening to a lot of soundtracks too - they often help me focus while I’m working and make me feel like I’m doing something really dramatic and life changing, even if I’m just making a spreadsheet! The soundtrack to the movie Minari is really beautiful (and the movie is great too!).
I love that your influences are so diverse, I think that if we as Christians are open to a wide range of influences, it will in turn allow us to create diverse types of art and thus, a myriad of ways to worship.
In the last decade or so, we’ve seen a real surge of Christian artists exploring all types of genres - indie, folk, R&B, soul, and so on - that are more associated with the ‘secular’ music world. What advice do you have for other songwriters / musicians who might not fit in the traditional worship music genre and are still discovering their sound?
I’d encourage people to just keep experimenting with their sound. Try new things and push yourself by getting out of your comfort zone. With time I think you come to find a consistent thing that runs through the songs you write, and that becomes your ‘sound’. On the other hand I’d also say there’s no pressure to find a certain style and box yourself into that. People are much more open to variety than we think.
More importantly, I think it’s important that you do not place your value in external factors. We’re valued already because of who God says we are. We often measure if what we do is worthwhile by the way it’s received by other people, but a lot of that is out of our control. We can’t decide how many people will listen, how many likes we’ll get, or even which songs do well! That lack of control can feel a bit paralysing for creative people, and that’s why I think it’s important to set a more internal motive.
Create because you enjoy it, and because it’s how you want to express worship, or because you want to write a song that brings people peace. How it does that, the number of people it reaches, and all of that external stuff is really not your job to worry about.
Amen - once we ‘release’ our art as worship unto God, it really is in His hands. Switching gears... What are some new artistes you're really excited about?
Recently I’ve been enjoying Claudia Isaki, Yaz Williams, and Jonah Vocal. There are some new albums on the way from Taylor Armstrong, John Mark Pantana, and Mark Barlow that I’m really excited for.
Where do you think the Christian music scene is going?
Exactly like what you said earlier, I think the Christian music scene is finally looking like what I hoped it would be all those years ago. There’s more diversity now, the songs don’t sound the same, there is a realisation that we can write worship songs for other contexts and not just for Sunday mornings. A lot of the artists I mentioned are the type of artists I like to listen to while I’m driving, or working, or spending time with friends, and I’m thankful for that.
A song off Awaken Generation Music’s 2020 album ‘Behold’, co-written by AG songwriter Gideon Lim and Ogden.
You recently announced the end of both Rivers and Robots as well as Set Sail. While we're sad, we're also excited for your solo projects! What upcoming projects do you have going on?
My next solo project is going to be a full length album. It’s hard to get the headspace for that sometimes in this day and age, and I’ve been releasing more EPs and singles, but I have a bigger theme that I’d like to dive into and might take some time out to just hide away and work on that for a while.
I’ve also started a new company called Magnify Studio with my friend Philip Shibata, and we’re aiming to make that a platform for equipping and inspiring Christian creatives. We have lots of plans for that but we’re just starting out so there’s plenty to do!
Jonathan Ogden is an artist and songwriter from Manchester, UK. Previously working as a graphic designer, and the lead singer of the worship band Rivers & Robots, he is passionate about using creativity and art to make Jesus known. To follow more of Jon Ogden’s work, follow him on Instagram, listen to his music on Spotify, and subscribe to his Youtube channel!